Rudder

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Rudder

Postby yar1243 » Wed Apr 15, 2009 11:10 am

Hi, I just bought a 1971 Falcon sail #1243. It is in pretty good shape with a complete hull liner. The deck is/was a faux teak gelcoat along with the floor of the cockpit. It does not have a rudder so I am making one and I wonder if anyone can tell me how far below the skeg it should extend. I want to go sailing this week but I need a rudder. This seems like a very well built daysailor with hull lines that I like. Also there is a plate on the centerboard cover that is so bad I can't read it anymore does anyone know what it says?

Thanks Yar
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Re: Rudder

Postby DaveD » Wed Apr 15, 2009 11:55 am

I don't think my rudder is "stock" or OEM. I'll put it on and measure it. I know my rudder has the ability to lift up if you want to pull it ashore or anchor it in the shallows. (so the rudder doesn't drag or rub).

My plaque on the keel cover inside was 3-4 inches in diameter, and had the initials ABBC (American Boatbuilding Corporation) and a small brass plate that said American Boatbuilding Corporation of East Greenwich, Rhode Island.

If that is the case, you have the Beetle boat design of the Falcon.

Here is a slide show of another restoration and it has a picture of the rudder right at the beginning.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=clfFmxEGY9k

There is a guy that has some sail dimensions and keel dimensions also:

http://www.beetlefalcon.com/index.html

Good luck, and I'll do a measurement on mine sometime today.
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Re: Rudder

Postby yar1243 » Thu May 07, 2009 9:12 am

Thanks DaveD. I built a rudder (swing up) and have been sailing twice since. After I cleaned my plate, which is plastic, I was able to read it it said Falcon reg. no. 1243, McVay Yachts, Mahone Bay Novia Scotia. When I pressure washed it it almost disappeared. I'm working on it now and will send pictures. How does your mast mount on the deck? I found that mine has been repaired (poked a hole through the deck) and has an aluminum plate with a piece of wood surrounding a Stainless ring that the mast slides into. This doesn't look OEM. I added support under the deck and it seems fine now.
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Re: Rudder

Postby DaveD » Thu May 07, 2009 11:59 pm

Good going on the sailing! I just painted the hull of mine last week.

I haven't had my mast up yet, but soon. There is a "horseshoe" shaped cleat that the bottom of the mast sits on, then the forestay connects to the same fairlead/bowcleat that the trailer winch connects to. The other stays connect slightly aft of the horseshoe.

I am going to take pics when I get it going in a couple of weeks and will up date.

How is your Main rigged in? Do you have blocks on the stern?
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Re: Rudder

Postby yar1243 » Mon May 11, 2009 6:55 pm

DaveD I moved to the roll call post and added some pic's
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Re: Rudder

Postby reitzelst » Sat Jan 09, 2010 7:51 pm

I have a McVay Falcon 16 that I purhased a few years ago. I've done mostly minor cleanup, however sails and rigging are starting to show their age. The rudder was a bad replacement when I purchased it - made from plywood, very small. I made a new one, plywood stock with an aluminum blade. However the plywood support (the part that attaches to the boat - whatever its called) does not have sufficient strength. In a stiff breeze, with boat heeled over, the plywood is almost twisted 90 degrees.

I'm wondering if anyone has an original rudder than than can provide pictures of. I'd like to try and copy it.

My sails have also been patched many times and the main should be replaced. Thanks for the link to sailrite. Has anyone in Canada used this site? I notice their order form allows Postal Codes as well as Zip Codes - suggesting its Canuck friendly.

Thanks

Steve
Sudbury, Ontario
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Re: Rudder

Postby DaveD » Sat Jan 09, 2010 8:12 pm

Welcome Steve.

Thanks for stopping by.

I don't have an original rudder for this boat, mine is made of all aluminum, including the tiller handle (I'd like to fashion a wood handle or find one that would work and order it).

I believe the original rudder was a single pieced rudder. Mine is a swing up. This makes it easier for pulling the boat up onshore, or trailering it in and out of boat ramps.

That youtube video above is going to give a quick view of the original rudder, you can pause it and take a snapshot. You can probably calculate some dimensions by measuring the transom and doing some proportions.

If I can be of any assistance, let me know. The other falcon owners drift in and out from time to time.

If you can, create a little post about your boat under "Roll Call" and post a couple of pictures. I also have been putting together little albums for the main page, if you would like one, just give me permission to use your pics that you post in your boat post.
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Re: Rudder

Postby NODROG » Sat Feb 06, 2010 4:53 pm

Here is a picture of an original Beetle Falcon rudder. I don't have dimensions, since I actually captured this pic off an ad on e-Bay for a Tech Dinghy (used the same rudder as the Falcon, go figure!). I know they were the same because the rudder on my Dad's Falcon broke (fiberglass had cracked and it snapped off just at the lower gudgeon) and he traced our neighbor's Tech Rudder to make a pattern for a new plywood replacement. That was over 40 years ago...... so I really can't offer much more detailed.
This rudder has been upgraded to stainless steel pintles in place of the original bronze slides that fit on a track on the transom.
Beetle Rudder.jpg
Original rudder from Beetle Falcon
Beetle Rudder.jpg (32.9 KiB) Viewed 15250 times
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Re: Rudder

Postby Brett » Wed Apr 14, 2010 10:27 am

Hi!

I've just got a Falcon (McVay) and just joined the forum, but I thought I'd offer the info I've got on the rudder discussion.

The pictures below are of the rudder that came with McVay Falcon 273. If 273's is an original rudder (though from boat late in the production run), perhaps the reason that the Falcons we've been discussing appear to not have original rudders is due to the limitations of the rudder pictured below.

In terms of size it is just over 3ft tall and 1ft long at the widest point. The centre piece of wood is 9ply plywood.

(If I'm wrong on this original rudder thing, please let me know! There is a chance that it is a copy of the original.)

Rudder273.JPG
Rudder273.JPG (888.79 KiB) Viewed 15180 times


RudderDetail273.JPG
RudderDetail273.JPG (921.33 KiB) Viewed 15180 times
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Re: Rudder

Postby reitzelst » Wed Apr 14, 2010 9:35 pm

I have the same tiller and hardware. My plywood rudder had been replaced and appears smaller than what you show in the photo.

I've rebuilt mine with an aluminum blade. However the upper plywood section which holds the blade flexes too much. I need to strengthen it futher.

Is there a way I can download the photos. I can only see a portion of the picture at once?

Steve Reitzel
Sudbury, ON
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Re: Rudder

Postby DaveD » Thu Apr 15, 2010 12:35 am

Hi Guys!

I'm working on getting some changes made to displaying images. Sometimes people have cameras that format photos different ways. I am trying to get posts to all display the same.

If you see the look and feel of the forum change, don't worry...pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.

I'm just playing to get stuff to display correctly.

---Dave
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Re: Rudder

Postby DaveD » Thu Apr 15, 2010 1:35 am

Click on the photos and you shall receive.

The images are only going to display so big in a text area, so if you click on the image, it should open in another window with a good view.

Thanks for the input!

--DD
A bad day sailing is better than a good day at work...
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Re: Rudder

Postby reitzelst » Thu Apr 15, 2010 11:56 am

Thanks very much Dave.

That works well.
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Re: Rudder

Postby DaveD » Thu Apr 15, 2010 12:04 pm

One thing I noticed about the rudders above.

The original one that has a rounded bottom looks like a plywood version of mine (although my rudder isn't original anymore, and is modified to swing up when launching or beaching the boat). Pictures coming soon.

With that "tail" on it...mine when I go hard starboard with it (motor is starboard on my boat) and the rudder is raised, it hits the blades of the prop. The Brett's rudder looks to not have that issue, because it follows the line of the transom.

Just something to think about.

--D
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Re: Rudder

Postby Brett » Sat Apr 24, 2010 10:41 pm

Hi Fellow Falcon Fans,

I will send some better pictures of the rudder for #273; the more I read, the more I think it's the one that came with the boat. It's in pretty good shape, but I do plan to refinish/reseal it; it need some tlc. I love the swing-up idea that I have read about; it sounds like many of the replacement rudders are a lot more user-friendly than this one is. All the same, the first time this boat sails with me as pilot it will be with this rudder, but I can see that I may be making a second one for the boat.

My eventual goal for the boat is to take it to Georgian Bay and other places and camp from it each year, which is what my wife and I have done for many years with our tandem kayak or canoe. This involves a lot of beaching, so the original rudder will be problematic.

Dave made an interesting point about the functioning of the replacement rudders; the long swing-up ones interfere with props. The copy/second rudder that I eventually make may be a simple swing-up version of the deep original, so that I can beach the boat without worry but not have a long trailing rudder that bends or hits the prop (273 will be getting a trolling motor eventually).
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Re: Rudder

Postby reitzelst » Mon Apr 26, 2010 9:08 pm

Hi Brett,

Would you be able to send approximate dimensions of your rudder? I believe the one I copied previously was actually for the Beetle Falcon. I'm just looking for overal length and width at the widest part of the blade.

Thanks

Steve
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Re: Rudder

Postby DaveD » Mon Apr 26, 2010 9:21 pm

I also would like to mention a small but important aspect of the swing-up rudder.
I notice on mine when in heavier waves, the lower section will bounce and bang. Also if the rudder's lower section isn't heavy enough, there maybe a tendency if the lower section to "lift" as you pick up boat speed.
I am working on a system to lock mine in and lift it from the cockpit. I will post my findings and solutions here.

In addition, the prop only is a factor when the rudder is in up postion on mine. You would only need to be aware when you are trying to get way close to shore. Normally, you would cut the power way before this would be a problem.

--DD
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Re: Rudder

Postby Brett » Fri Apr 30, 2010 12:59 pm

Hi!
I'll get those pictures and dimensions of the rudder posted this weekend. Sorry I haven't been on in a while. Thanks again for all of the discussion; I'm learning a lot!
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Measurements of McVay Falcon 273 rudder (likely original)

Postby Brett » Wed May 05, 2010 7:50 pm

Hello!

Sorry these are late! I really wanted to get them up on the weekend but I spent the time clearing my garage so I could get the boat inside and dry, so the time was well spent! : )

RudderEntireMeasurements.JPG


RudderBottomMeasurement.JPG


RudderBladeWidth.JPG


I'm going to sand and refinish this one, and sail the boat with it.

If there are other angles or dimensions you would like, let me know!

Brett
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Rudder of 273 on boat

Postby Brett » Wed May 05, 2010 7:55 pm

Here's a couple more shots:

RudderOnBoat.JPG

RudderOnBoatshowingFinKeel.JPG

RudderShowDeck.JPG


The rudder goes deep below the boat to my eyes! Also, I'm a bit concerned about losing the rudder if I ever flip the sailboat... I imagine some kind of rudder leash has been created by someone; I'd love tips!

Brett
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Re: Rudder

Postby reitzelst » Sun May 09, 2010 5:41 pm

Thanks Brett, that helps. My rudder is shorter than yours and I'm in the process of lengthing it. When the boat is heeled over, there's not enough rudder in the water and I have to over steer to keep the boat on track (I think its called "weather helm" in sailor lingo). I have a small line tied between the rudder and to the lower rudder mount to keep it in place. I've flipped my boat several times and the rudder will come off. I have replaced the plywood blade of my rudder with an aluminum blade and my rudder no longer floats.

Steve
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Re: Rudder

Postby DaveD » Mon May 10, 2010 2:03 am

I have a solution for securing the rudder, I'm working on it right now...

I'll post when I get it.
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Re: Rudder

Postby poncho1958 » Mon May 10, 2010 12:08 pm

This to Steve, I haven't got my boat to the tip point yet,hope it doesn't come to that. How hard was it to right the boat after tipping? Did you have to stand on the center board? Did you take on alot of water? I would be happy to hear your version in case or when it happens to me.
Jim
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Re: Rudder

Postby reitzelst » Mon May 10, 2010 10:51 pm

Hi Jim,

I've tipped several times, usually due to pushing things to far. I'm on a relatively small lake and if I get into trouble, I can abandon the boat and make my way to shore fairly easily. On a larger lake, where the water is colder, or help is further away, I would be more cautious.

The boat rights relatively easily. On a few occasions, if I'm already haning over the side, I've been able to step on to the center board and then back into the boat bearly get my shorts wet. Most often though I end up in the water and have to hang from the center board. By myself, I have to sit at the end of the center board to get enough leverage. In windy conditions it can take some effort to right by myself. It much easier if there are two people.

The boat generally takes on a lot of water, even when I've managed to right it immediately. My boat has a bulk head that isolate the bow storage compartment from the rest of the boat (a plywood cover that clips in place). Its far from water tight, however it usually buys some time and provides some additional short term boyancy. Last time I capsized, that bulkhead came out and once righted, the boat was awash in the water (i.e. floating, but level with the surface). I was unable to bail it or sail it back to shore and had to be towed. Because i don't use the bow storage, I will probably be turning this area into a more permanent floatation pocket.

On a warm summer day, when there's help around, you may want to consider tipping the boat just to see how it goes.

Good luck.

Steve
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Re: Rudder

Postby DaveD » Tue May 11, 2010 12:39 am

Steve,

That is how I would have expected it to behave. My Falcon has ZERO positive flotation, only a small pocket behind the bulkhead under the bow, and maybe a couple of pockets under the seats. I've often thought that if this boat capsized it would sink when you tried to right it. I thought that if I could somehow attach 2 or 3 inch blue foam board under the deck (all around the boat) that maybe if you could get the deck to float at or just above the water, you would at least have a chance to bail, or pull the plug and sail out of it.

I also considered filling the compartments under the seats and that bulkhead space with spray foam insulation.

What do you guys think?

--Dave
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Re: Rudder

Postby reitzelst » Tue May 11, 2010 8:34 pm

The Falcon could certainly use some additional floatation. At the club I use to belong to, they used collaspable water jugs (the square soft plastic jugs). You could push them through access ports and then inflate them in the bow and stern sections. You could probably cut up blocks of blue styrofoam as well and stick in these in the various cavities.

I like the idea of using expandable foam, but have no experience with it. One concern would be controlling the expansion of the foam to make sure it doesn't push against the fiberglass and deform things. I think you'd also want it to be "closed cell" foam if possible. Otherwise it may absorb water over time.

I've seen white water canoes that have an inner tube blown up in the middle of the boat for added buoyancy. It may be possible to do something similar in the bulk head area under the bow.

Let us know if you come up with something you're happy with.

Steve
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Re: Rudder

Postby Brett » Wed May 12, 2010 10:08 am

Hi!

I second the use air bags suggestion. If storage is important on the boat, bags will leave the most options open to you in terms of access to the storage areas of the boat. I've been a kayak camper in Georgian Bay for many years and my favourite kayak is a tandem with no bulkheads, but therefore no built-in flotation in the storage areas, so it will sink with all my stuff if I flip unless I use bags. It works well though; my camping gear all goes in good drybags, some of which are designed to fit the shape of the hull. The bags are then tied-in to anchor points in the kayak so they don't float-out in a capsize. They also keep my gear drier than gear in compartments because the compartments often leak. Some of the end bags are solely for flotation, and they have held their air for years. They can be topped-up with air through long tubes that come all the way back to the cockpit.

In the sailboat application, I would be concerned about the foam rotting and stinking over time, maybe not providing enough flotation, and most importantly that it does not give you the option of using your storage spaces like under the seats and in the sail locker if the foam is permanently installed. With the airbags, you can inflate them over and around stored objects in those areas when you need the storage.

With airbags, you need to inflate them if you store gear in or under them, so we use a rechargeable portable inflator. We get a few fills out of it. When launching near the car, we use one that plugs into the car. We have had to inflate them by mouth now and then, and that does suck, so that's one downside to the bags.

The other downside is cost; good fitted bags are expensive when they are purchased from kayak/canoe/camping outfitters. Consider the small bags that pool supply stores sell for holding-down winter covers; they are cheap and would allow you to test the flotation with little expense. They are normally filled with water, but air should also be fine. They are flat and rectangular and come in a bunch of lengths, from 2 to 6 feet, I believe.

Maybe a combination of bags and foam? Or foam in bags? I'm going to consider doing the same thing in the locker of #273.

Brett
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Re: Rudder

Postby joecomet » Tue Aug 31, 2010 1:05 pm

The rudder on my boat looks a like Bretts. I will check the measurments. You can see it in my pics on the site, #11-- Paceship 1964.
As to the flotation issue, the sailor who sold me this Falcon said he filled the seat cavities with form and tested the flotation in shoal water with a successful float.
Joseph
Last edited by joecomet on Sat Mar 19, 2011 3:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Rudder

Postby joecomet » Sat Mar 19, 2011 3:07 am

Here are some measurments of my rudder. Looks like Bretts, but with less area on the blade.
overall height--3' 8"
lower blade--18.5" long and 8.5" wide
pindle heights from bottom--lower/1' 11" upper/2'6"

Joseph
Tallahassee Fl
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Re: Rudder (swing up)

Postby joecomet » Mon Jun 20, 2011 3:24 pm

To update on my rudder. I have added a new composite (with stainless steel rods imbedded) blade that is some Sq. Inches larger than my old wooden one. I found it on ebay for $45 It has an airfoil shape, and was drilled out for a large bolt to swing on. I put a half inch bolt through a sleeve, and use a large wing nut to set the friction. Drilled a small hole in the trailing edge with a sleeve, and attactched a small line that runs under the tiller hinge to pull the blade to horizontal. I still have to epoxy a piece in the upper housing to strengthen it for the longer twisting monment when in the blad is in the upper position. I would say I got a steal on the blade. It was built for a boat line that never was put in production. I did see several other simular blades on ebay.
Sailed the boat at the Cedar Key Small Boat Get Together, the last of May. No racing, just a pull out on a beach on the island across the pass. At 16' she was one of the bigger boats. Only the Sea Pearl types and a couple of cats were longer.
Shoal water, and lots of oysters. Great old hotel from the 1800's.
Hope everyone is having a good summer. Its now too hot (up to the low hundred's) here for this old guy to get out in that tropical sun for awhile. Hope we don't get a Hurricane before it cools off a bit.
Keep the stick pointed at the sky
Joseph
'Carrifran Falcon'
Last edited by joecomet on Mon Jun 20, 2011 3:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Rudder/Flotation

Postby joecomet » Mon Jun 20, 2011 3:35 pm

I just added some extra floatation to my boat. Already had the cockpit lockers filled with packed foam pieces. I found some of the larger diamiter foam swim "noodles" that will support at least 200 lbs, at one of the chain stores. Put several under the cockpit combing rails, under the stern counter, and a couple under the fordeck. That ought to keep her afloat long enough to bail her out. I was worried about the extra weight of two batteries for my 40lb thrust electric motor.
Joseph
'Carrifran Falcon'
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